Why do we do this?

topic posted Wed, June 22, 2005 - 9:14 PM by  Bridget
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There's a largely hidden discussion over in the "What's so great about Tribe?" thread, all about why we're writing, and for whom. Rick, Jennifer, and Melissa are all raising interesting points about whether writing for the short fiction markets is practical, given the size of the market, vs self-publishing on the Web.

Would youse guys like to continue that topic here? It would help us not lose it later. If so, kind of sum up your major points for the rest of us.

Thanks.
posted by:
Bridget
Seattle
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Why do we do this?

    Wed, June 22, 2005 - 10:35 PM
    For whom do we write?

    I happen to enjoy creating stories. Unfortunately, it takes a week or two or more to get a story from concept to reviewable draft, while I can come up with story ideas at a rate of a couple a day.

    While I enjoy writing the stories, I hate the submission process. Here I am sending out stories to magazines and what happens? Sometimes a story is gone, out of circulation for a year or two, languishing under someone's couch no doubt. Sometimes it's carelessly left on a porch and is pissed on by some animal (real deal - no lie). Sometimes it's just lost and sometimes it's found, only too late.

    Editors have no real obligation to take care of my work. They have no obligation to review it in a timely fashion. They have no obligation to provide feedback. When I send a story, it's my understanding that I'm giving control of that work to someone else until such time as that person notifies me as to a change or return, or until I retract that story through written notification.

    Back to the original question. Am I writing for myself, for an editor, for an audience, or for other writers? If it's for myself, I can finish a treatment of an idea and move onto another idea and just keep nurturing ideas (I have a folder with over 800 of these ideas right now). Given that, I find myself questioning the market.

    I said this in the other thread: Readership is decreasing yearly. That's true of novels, periodicals, and newspapers. But, it is not to say that less people are reading. On the contrary, more people are reading, but they are reading on-line in a graphically-enhanced flash format. I suspect that the while the average person reads more words per year than ever before, that traditional printed media accounts for a rapidly diminishing percentage of that consumption.

    With that in mind, who is reading Asimov's, F&SF, Weird Tales, Sci-Fiction, 3rd Alternative, and all these other short fiction markets? The only people I know who are reading them are other writers. I talk to people in my neighborhood sometimes and none of them have even heard of most of these magazines and none of them have ever read one of them.

    What do my neighbors read? They read Salon and Wired and Mother Jones, but mostly they read the internet.

    I'm not doing it for the money. No offense, but at $.03/word, my average story is worth $180 and I can make that much in my day job in just a few hours. I made that much every week for a column in a local paper and for that I never had to worry about rejection or acceptance.

    So, if I'm not doing it for the money, I must be doing it for the audience. So, who is the audience? Who are the people reading these publications? If it's just editors and writers, why don't I just write for critters.org and my writing group and an ocassional convention workshop?

    Fact of the matter is: I want broader exposure. For that do I return to game design and companion books? Or is there a way to get broad appeal within the genre publications?
    • A couple of thoughts in response.

      Thu, June 23, 2005 - 10:03 AM
      First, if I could go from idea to reviewable draft in only a week or two, I’d think I was being extraordinarily productive. As a rule, I write between 1500 and 2000 words a day, but the gap between ‘having got the words down’ and ‘having got the words down in a form where they’re ready to show anyone else’ is far longer than that.

      As far as readership for different forms of outlet goes, I think you may be being unfair to suggest that the readership of Asimov’s and F&SF is composed exclusively of other writers, I would be willing to believe that the proportion of readers who are also aspiring writers is higher than for many other periodicals, but that’s at least in part because there’s something about the SF/fantasy genres that makes people want to stop just reading and see if they can do it for themselves.

      With regards to “finding an audience” and “wanting broader exposure” that it’s maybe worth clarifying what you actually mean. If you’re after the levels of fame where strangers look at you twice to see if it really is “that man off the TV”, then the chances of you getting it are very, very bad. Even supposing the story you’re working on turns out to be the next Da Vinci Code or the next Harry Potter… well, would you recognise Dan Brown or Joanna Rowling if they walked into your local bar? I know I wouldn’t.

      Even if you set your sights lower (considerably lower) than that, your chances are not good. Unless you are extraordinarily lucky (or unlucky) you are almost guaranteed to go through your without any but the tinniest fraction of the human population ever giving a damn about you. That’s true whatever you do. Write a story; most people will ignore it. Write a story and put it on the internet; even more people will ignore it. (I’m not trying to be personal here. The same is true of any of us.) This being so, it’s worth thinking about what kind of fame you want. Are you just after eyeballs. Do you want the respect of people whose values your share and whose opinions you value. If you think of it that way, then maybe the attention of the readers of Aeon or F&SF starts to seem more valuable. There may only be a handful of them, but they’re a smart handful. They’ve got taste.

      Of course, in theory this all a very old-fashioned way of looking at things. All that time waiting for your work to claw its way up to the top of an editor’s slush pile, all those dead trees. Why not just put your work on the web and let your fame spread by osmosis? If you’re good, people will link to you and your reputation will spread. That’s the theory. Maybe it’s even the practice some of the time. But I’m not convinced about it. I spend a good chunk of my life on-line and (apart from erotica) I have never tried to look for fiction on the web. Life is far too short to spend it wading through the outpourings of folk who are sure they can write but possess neither talent or the willingness to work. I rely on people like Bridget McKenna and Gordon Van Gelder and Andy Cox to screen that stuff for me. By buying their magazines I am paying them to read crap so that I don’t have to. For me, this is really the point of submitting to a paying market. You’re right, it’s not about the money – although the money is nice to have. But it’s much more about succeeding in an environment where 98% of contenders fail.
      • Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

        Thu, June 23, 2005 - 10:57 AM
        >>Fact of the matter is: I want broader exposure. For that do I return to game design and companion books? Or is there a way to get broad appeal within the genre publications? <<

        Absolutely there's a way to get broad appeal within the genre. Write a great book.

        I'm not being facetious. It's the golden rule. It's the only thing you have to worry about, not how many people read Asimov's--with a circulation of 30k, I find it difficult to believe that they're all writers but who knows?--not how to get a great agent or how to properly parse an elevator pitch or any of the myriad of other items that devour the greater bandwith of most on-line writing forums.

        Just write a great book. Everything else will take care of itself.

        That's why I write. Every time I sit down, I intend to write a great story. Not just a mediocre one. Not just one that will get me little name plastered up in the Editors and Pre-editors poll, but a great story; one that sticks with you for weeks and months and days.

        One of these days, I might do it. Until it happens, I'll keep on trying, because I absolutely love the effort. And just because I fail, doesn't mean I shove it into my desk drawer and forget about it. Maybe I didn't hit the mark on this one, but at least it's a _good_ story. Didn't intend to write a merely _good_ story, but that's what I have nonetheless. As a reader, I know I'm not going to be knocked out--or in Marty and Bridgit parlance, " . . .have my ass kicked," by every story I read. But if I only read the great stories, I'd be doing very little reading.

        So I send the _good_ ones out as well, and immediately start on my next attempt at greatness.

        Hey, it's a goal. :-)
        • Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

          Thu, June 23, 2005 - 11:06 AM
          And that's "Marti," not Marty.

          ::He says, ducking from the wrath of the red-headed one.::
          • Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

            Thu, June 23, 2005 - 3:11 PM
            Why do I do this?

            I ask myself that a lot some days.
            I write because there are stories in my head that want to be real, and I want to create something that's as close to that as possible.

            Why do I try to sell the results? Because it's such a rush to know that one of my stories got through to someone. If it's other writers, well, these are people whose opinions I respect, so that's a plus. And if MORE people read it, even better!
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

          Thu, June 23, 2005 - 5:02 PM
          Joseph, you are absolutely right.

          One great book and this discussion is dead.

          So, is the short fiction merely a writing exercise?
          • Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

            Thu, June 23, 2005 - 6:18 PM
            I'd say, again, "depends on the writer," and what they want from their work. I'm as fond of some of my short stories as I am of my longer work. Some ideas are just better suited to a smaller format.

            I'd also say that publishing "one great book" wouldn't have to keep a writer from reevaluating why they keep doing this.
            (How DO you define "great," BTW?)
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

              Thu, June 23, 2005 - 6:41 PM
              Good question, Melissa.

              For me, Great fiction causes a real-world attitude shift in the reader.

              The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien is my all-time favorite piece of short fiction. It took the real-world, fictionalized it, and gave people a new understanding of the issues soldiers dealt with in Vietnam.
          • Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

            Fri, June 24, 2005 - 7:20 AM
            Oh no, the short fiction is simply an attempt at a great book that ends up being to short too sell as a novel.

            Howard Waldrop once said that a story is about the most important event in a character's life, whereas a novel is about the most important time in a character's life. All my ideas so far have been about the events, that's all.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

        Thu, June 23, 2005 - 4:59 PM
        Your right, I'll clarify what I mean. I don't want to be recognized in public. I wouldn't want people to ask, "Hey, aren't you . . ." What I am interested in is ideas and I believe I have some ideas of note coupled with unique experiences and with that I can produce fiction to express these concepts.

        You make a fantastic point about the editors choosing the best stories to read so you don't have to . . . it's a perspective I hadn't considered. However, the question of who reads these publications remains - - if circulations are so high, who are these people? Even at Sci-Fi conventions, I've (unscientifically) polled non-writers and I haven't met any who read the short fiction.

        It's not that I want to exclude my peers in the speculative writing community, but I want an inclusive reach beyond them. I really like standing around at a convention discussing Life, The Universe, and Everything with other writers - - for they 'get' me and writers are quick-minded, well-read, and current on all things possible. It's fun.

        A few years back, I designed a children's educational game which is designed around Egyptian mythology. I felt great about the reach of my ideas . . . not a single one of the children will remember the name of the designer, but they'll know the character names and the mission and the legends.

        So, who is bringing new audiences to short fiction? I've mentioned this elsewhere and have come up with a few names.

        Neil Gaiman (who, incidentally lives nearby - I'm within walking distance of Dreamhaven, his 'home' bookstore). Through Sandman he brought an enormous audience to his short fiction and sales are boosted for every publication carrying his name. It's impressive to me, because while I loved Sandman, I haven't read a short story, save Nicholas Was . . ., by him that I felt matched his reputation.

        Cory Doctorow. Through Boing Boing, he introduces a daily readership of 200,000 people to his fiction. A percentage of them follow to his short stories.

        I'm brainstorming here and granted I'm not as good as they are or I'd not have a full rejection file next to an empty acceptance envelope, but in order to make my voice heard in the cacaphony of fiction available, I'm going to have to do more than just the traditional method.

        I'll keep practicing and I'll keep writing and I'll score with good stories and struggle with weak ones. But, as a matter of discussion, there are possibilities untapped and I'm wondering where they are.

        Finally, about Asimov's circulation. 30K . . . who are they?
        • Re: A couple of thoughts in response.

          Fri, June 24, 2005 - 8:47 AM
          Here's my 2 cents, in a somewhat disjointed form. Note: these are general thoughts, not directed at anyone in particular. I'm not passing judgment on anyone's writing ability, but just discussing some things I noticed.

          If you visit Analog and Asimov's reader forums, you'll see that many folks there are not writers but pure readers. Who are they? Not sure, but they do exist.

          Re: fewer people read. That's true in terms of percentage points. But with growing population, the NUMBERS of readers are quite high. they go for novels more than short stories though.

          Exposure on the web vs traditional publication: I do not read free fiction on the web. I'm sure that some of it is good, but 99.9% is terrible. This is why we have editors -- to suffer through rivers of horrible stuff to pull out a few good ones. While we all do it for love and not money, money is the token of validation -- if someone paid you for fiction, it's likely to be better than free stuff you can find on a fanfic site.

          There was a story by Stanislav Lem, about two robot inventors who are captured by a pirate. Pirate wants information -- the new gold, and they build him a machine that spews out true facts. Soon, pirate drowns in the sea of meaningless information. A very apt analogy for what's happening on the Internet today, IMO -- too much info, too little time. And with the mags (small and large press) that deliver reliably good stuff, why would I go searching on the Internet?

          Re: Boing-boing. Notice that Mr. Doctorow did not start out by giving fiction away for free. First, he obtained validation through having someone to pay him. After that, he published some of his work for free. Blog is a good way to promote fiction -- once you have it published. It's not a substitute. However, if you just want to share ideas, blog might be a good way to go. But I've never seen a blog consisting of unpublished fiction getting a huge readership.

          Why write short stories: because I like reading them. Also, some ideas are better at short length -- 'small' ideas. I resent when an author makes me slog through a novel that should've been a short. Shorts are quicker to write, and provide a faster gratification than a novel. Time is an issue -- with limited writing time, it is easier to keep a hold on a short than a novel. Recognition -- I know folks who landed an agent after publishing a few shorts in high-profile markets. Fun -- a good mag with a few good shorts provides variety not found in a novel.

          Caveat: everything I just said might be completely wrong.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Why do we do this?

    Thu, June 23, 2005 - 3:19 PM
    Well, this may be a royal we, but we do this because when we don't we're miserable.

    law
    • Re: Why do we do this?

      Fri, June 24, 2005 - 8:29 AM
      Yes! That's it exactly (I've been feeling off for the past week, ever since finishing up the revisions to a novel). If I'm not working on something, whether it's a story or a novel, I'm grumpy as hell.

      Speaking for myself only, I have a need to create something, and I finally found the right medium -- fiction. I don't worry too much about audience or editors as I'm doing my drafting and revisiong -- I'm just telling the story to myself, trying to make it as clear as possible. Worrying about your readership is sort of pointless, in my opinion.

      It's sort of like, "If you build it, they will come."

      But the "it" had better be just as cool as a baseball field in the middle of rows of corn, with ghost ballplayers on it.

      Mike
      • Re: Why do we do this?

        Fri, June 24, 2005 - 8:51 AM
        Baseball is not a religion! Cooking is.
        • Re: Why do we do this?

          Fri, June 24, 2005 - 2:39 PM
          Less a religion, more a cult...

          Personally, I write short fiction because I enjoy the structure, and find it's a good length and form to tell certain stories.

          I then choose my markets for a combination of exposure and payment. If nobody choses to publish them, that has nothing to dow tiht he writing of them. Writing and selling are two different entities for me.
        • Re: Why do we do this?

          Fri, June 24, 2005 - 4:34 PM
          Baseball may not be a religion, but Basketball certainly is here at Crow Cottage. And I won't be in church again until October <sigh...!>. Fantastic NBA championship final game last night, by the way.

          To me, both the process of writing a short story and the experience of reading one are so different from writing and reading novels that they might almost be two different activities. It's almost as hard to write a short story as a novel, and until the recent upsurge in webzines it was damn near as hard to publish one. I contend it's STILL as hard to sell a novella as a novel. Harder. Fewer slots.

          Anyway, a short story is sort of pointed and sharpened, and every word and every comma counts. Writing one is like walking down a hallway lined with knives: you have to proceed with great precision to get successfully to the other end, and you'll still be bloody. But if you did it well, so will your readers. Magic, that: an act of emotional communication with people you'll never meet via the clumsiest possible way one can communicate short of semaphore. When it works, it's just DAMN.

          In novel writing you can put on a blindfold and dance down the hall, stop to chat with the neighbors, tie your shoes, have friends over for tea. Some of the knives aren't even all that sharp. Writing a novel takes longer, so the little cuts and scrapes are less keenly felt, though there's still the problem of blood loss.

          I'm in the last few chapters of one of those novel things right now, and that's the end of the hall where most of the really sharp things are. Ouch.

          Sf/f/h, is almost the last bastion of 'traditional' short fiction: you know, stories with a beginning, middle, and end. Characters. A plot. I confess to a weakness for those things. Yeah, it's the training-ground for those who will move on to writing novels (and in most cases leaving short fiction behind, and leaving fame slots open for the bold and upcoming), and I think it's a good one, but a lot of what you drum into yourself when you learn how to write short fiction will only find limited service in novel writing, and you'll have to get a whole new bag of tricks to add to your basic storytelling skills. At least that's how it was with me.

          It's hard to sell into the pro short fiction markets. That's what makes it so damn sweet when you get your first contract from Asimov's or F&SF. You did the work, you were judged alongside your peers, you were found worthy of one of those precious story slots. You were validated with a check. Not much of a check, but hey. For me, that's a high unlike any other.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Why do we do this?

            Fri, June 24, 2005 - 5:58 PM
            You make some good points . . .

            About the Pro-Short Fiction Contract, I'll have to take your word for it.

            Oh, a bit of good news. A friend of mine sent out his first short story ever (by ever I mean the first manuscript to enter an envelope) to Writer's of the Future and garnered a semifinalist rejection with honorable mention and personal critique from the panelists. I thought that pretty impressive.
            • Re: Why do we do this?

              Fri, June 24, 2005 - 6:13 PM
              Take her word. It is sweet. Plus, it opens doors like you wouldn't believe....

              I'm coming in a bit late because I've been out taking care of other things. I write because I couldn't imagine doing anything else. When I was a kid, I wrote stories for assignements whenever I could get away with it. My teachers encouraged it. In college, I once talked a professor into letting me write a piece of historical fiction instead of a pure research paper. He said, "As long as you include a bibliography..." It ended up twice the length he was asking, and he was happy.

              But I'm lookng up at my first pro contract now (From the late MZB) and it's still a case of, "Wow. I did that." And yes, I still want more. I've got a fair number of sales, and I certainly want to write a Great Book. Don't know if I want to be J.K. Rowling. It sounds nice, until you remember that she can go out for groceries about as easily as your average high-profile movie star. I don't know if I really want total strangers saying, "You know who that *is*? And she's buying extra-strengh anti-whatever!"

              No, it certainly isn't about the money, and any non-writers reading this need to know that before they start.

              It's more about the thrill of acceptance and the agony of rejection.
              But a moderate amount of recognition would be nice.
              • Re: Why do we do this?

                Fri, June 24, 2005 - 6:36 PM
                Yeah, that first (in my case only, so far) is the most incredible rush. And yeah, I want more. Maybe it's a case of the power of intermittant reinforcement...

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